Curse

Improvavel · Feb 24, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Would require some work on the mobs but would also make most tanking and solo-farming a lot harder.
Creating a massive uproar from a lot of players.

Solo farming shouldn't be a concern. Anet has been moving in the way of giving more rewards to teams that finish stuff opposed to people that just exploit a certain group of foes.

I think that changes should be made until the most efficient group doing elite areas use [[save yourselves] as the primary defense.

When this is achieved, make [[save yourselves] less powerful (by reducing the armor, increasing adrenal cost or something along these lines).

Of course, even if implemented in the right way, may lead players that don't want to study game mechanics away from the game.

Studying isn't exactly considered the most fun of the activities by the largest part of the human population and a game main objective is providing fun (for the consumers) and money (for the developers).

zwei2stein · Feb 24, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Studying isn't exactly considered the most fun of the activities by the largest part of the human population and a game main objective is providing fun (for the consumers) and money (for the developers).

Actually, learning and applying knowledge with feedback in proper environment is naturally enjoyable and fun experience. It is basic pillar of gaming on which everything is build. And where every game inevitably must start.

Improvavel · Feb 24, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Actually, learning and applying knowledge with feedback in proper environment is naturally enjoyable and fun experience. It is basic pillar of gaming on which everything is build. And where every game inevitably must start.

Learning isn't the same as studying.

One of the most popular genres of video games are shooters for some reason.

snaek · Feb 24, 2009, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by improvavel

Learning isn't the same as studying.

i agree
u learn by playing the game

the prob wit gw, is that it has become too much about "build wars" than anything else

build overcomes anything so ppl will rely on this
instead of obtaining skill by learning through play to beat the game
many ppl will beat the game by "studying" good builds instead

so good builds compensate for lack of good skills

of course good builds and build-making skills is very important in gw
but when there r a select few builds that will dominate without question
its broken imo

and even if u dun have good build-making skills...
pve skills have only made it more obvious to which r "good builds"
u stick some pve skills on ur bar, and ur bad bar becomes instant-win in many cases

so pve skills compensate for lack of being able to make a good build

and to top it off, consets will compensate for everything else

theres jus too much compensating "player ability" wit "in-game character ability"
its almost as if playing wow wit a lvl 60 character against lvl 20mobs...

Bryant Again · Feb 25, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The main problem here, is that you are seeing the game mostly from the point of 8 real person party...

Yeah, because that's ANet's intended form of play. Easily shown through the hero limit and limit of PvE skills.

Best solution to being able to access that hardest content? Find as many peeps as you can and fill in the blanks with heroes. Still having trouble? Well, there's normal mode.

The challenge is finding balance for everyone as a whole. Soloer's (like me) included. But either way, if ANet wanted to give a boost to those who liked to solo, blanket changes isn't the way to do that. Nor is individually adjusting success for those who like to go by themselves.

DreamWind · Feb 25, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The main problem here, is that you are seeing the game mostly from the point of 8 real person party.

I bet the large majority of people don't play or aren't even interested in playing with 7 other people.

Then they shouldn't be interested in Guild Wars. The entire point of the game was to have a 8 player team (and to PvP but that is another thread altogether). As I said before...heroes were a blessing and a curse for this game. To me they were great for many people but terrible for the game as a whole on multiple levels (including skill level of community and overall game balance).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Yeah, because that's ANet's intended form of play. Easily shown through the hero limit and limit of PvE skills.

Geez...we had a big long debate about heroes a while back but you finally admit this in another thread.

Bryant Again · Feb 25, 2009, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Regardless of what anyone thinks about the hero limit, the PvE game should always be balanced around 8-person parties for numerous reasons. It is, afterall, where you're going to find the most fun, and I can sympathize with ANet wanting to maintain and promote that (besides, 7-heroes is a want, not a need).

pingu666 · Feb 25, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

id kinda like to see a few more areas with 12 as the party limit, right now its the deep and urgoz, and AB kinda..., mixes itup abit

Improvavel · Feb 25, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Yeah, because that's ANet's intended form of play. Easily shown through the hero limit and limit of PvE skills.

You can find that in the guildwars web page (in here http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php) :

"It is tempting to believe that because a player is playing an MMO, and because good MMOs are social games, every player must therefore like to play with other players in a group. Our experience with Guild Wars is that this is an erroneous and dangerous assumption. On any given day, a player may want to play with his guild, or he may want to play with his best friend, or he may want to play alone. The fact that he is playing in a large communal environment is not a predictor of how he wants to play. We should be striving to make games that let you play how you want to play right now, and offer you the flexibility to progress with any combination of players you like.

Don't underestimate the importance of solo play! Sometimes your friends aren't online, sometimes you want to kill 30 minutes while everyone groups together, and sometimes you just don't want to go to committee on every damn decision. The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience. A few months before the release of Guild Wars we added computer-controlled henchmen to the game as a way to pad out your party when your friends weren't around. Later we enhanced this feature and introduced computer-controlled Heroes, which gave you control over their actions and more fully supported the notion of playing the game entirely on your own. While it may seem counterintuitive to add features that support the solo play experience into an MMO, we believe that Guild Wars would not have been as successful had we not added these features.

Two-player gaming, or as we call it "buddy gaming", is not a generic case of multi-player gaming, but is instead its own form of play that deserves special attention. Increasingly, MMOs are used as a setting for "real world" social interaction, including dating, spending time with your kids, or hanging out with your best friend or spouse. Just as the real social dynamics in a one-on-one setting greatly differ from the dynamics of a large group setting, the game experience when playing with one person differs from the experience of playing with a group. You can slow down, smell the flowers, discuss what you've seen and what you'd like to do, strategize and assist each other, and communicate on a more sincere level. In short, it's a more intimate form of community, and we should be supporting it explicitly."

Guess they beg to differ.

I reckon they don't implement 7 heroes because they don't know very well how to act, they are too "lazy" to do it now or because they are smart and want people to have 2 accounts

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i agree
u learn by playing the game

the prob wit gw, is that it has become too much about "build wars" than anything else

build overcomes anything so ppl will rely on this
instead of obtaining skill by learning through play to beat the game
many ppl will beat the game by "studying" good builds instead

so good builds compensate for lack of good skills

of course good builds and build-making skills is very important in gw
but when there r a select few builds that will dominate without question
its broken imo

and even if u dun have good build-making skills...
pve skills have only made it more obvious to which r "good builds"
u stick some pve skills on ur bar, and ur bad bar becomes instant-win in many cases

so pve skills compensate for lack of being able to make a good build

and to top it off, consets will compensate for everything else

theres jus too much compensating "player ability" wit "in-game character ability"
its almost as if playing wow wit a lvl 60 character against lvl 20mobs...

Comparing GWs to WoW isn't a good idea IMO. In WoW you level and acquire equipment to kill stronger "stat" mobs. What you need to do as player is not to split your attributes (or whatever they are called in WoW) too much.

GWs is first about individual and team builds.

Sure, it is a lot easier to copy a build than to make one, but you can't do much about that - that is what people do every day (look at what school is, for example).

Then it is about decisions on when to use the skills available and what mobs to prioritize.

The problem of PvE is similar to the problem that GvG faces (DON'T START TO FLAME YET!).
Long ago, GvG was about pressure and attrition (ok, there were the occasional spikes). Today, GvG is most about spike spike spike, until someone on the other side makes a mistake.

If you look at today builds, you will see much more direct defense (as in you cast it on your team mates, then by disruption of enemies). Which is odd, because defense became better and better.

Damage improved too, but mostly, direct damage, instead of pressure damage by conditions and hexes. Getting a stack of hexes and/or conditions, to see them all removed by [[divert hexes], [[restore condition] or [[peace and harmony] isn't nice.

In addition, everyone runs 600+ health now.

Now lets look at PvE - the mobs do more damage, attack faster, cast faster, recharge faster, have more energy regeneration, have more health, have more armor.

Do you want to fight a war of attrition with them? You want to degen or pressure them to death?

If you add to that the fact that most mobs don't even have decent monks, it is clear to understand why most PvE play revolves around "lets buy enough time to kill them" tactics.

Since the AI is quite stupid and players have the tools, a good player that doesn't trust its teammates, will prefer a "tanking" build or an imbagon build, where he/she can control the outcome of the fights.

Yes, it is a bit hard to tell players apart, but we can't forget, that despite being bots, the first team to do DoA was a GvG team using tank and spank.

Bryant Again · Feb 25, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

...

I reckon they don't implement 7 heroes because they don't know very well how to act, they are too "lazy" to do it now or because they are smart and want people to have 2 accounts

I'm not underestimating the importance of solo play. I'm saying that it's a terribly shitty reason to keep PvE skills/consumables. Both human and AI parties should be balanced exactly the same. So what if the AI is crap, that's not a reason to give soloers horrendously overpowered facets. If you really wanted to give soloers a boost, fix hero skill usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Comparing GWs to WoW isn't a good idea IMO. In WoW you level and acquire equipment to kill stronger "stat" mobs. What you need to do as player is not to split your attributes (or whatever they are called in WoW) too much.

GWs is first about individual and team builds.

It's now about boosting up your titles to boost up your PvE skills and to get boosted by consumables...sounds a lot like WoW, actually. No longer does your skill matter but rather the time you invest into your "stats", and going through that "time" isn't very difficult.

snaek · Feb 25, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryant again

It's now about boosting up your titles to boost up your PvE skills and to get boosted by consumables...sounds a lot like WoW, actually. No longer does your skill matter but rather the time you invest into your "stats", and going through that "time" isn't very difficult.

this

but the important thing to remember is that in wow, mob stats increase as ur stats increase
in gw, while ur stats increase, mob stats stay exactly the same

hence, its like ur lvl60 fighting vs lvl20 mobs

DreamWind · Feb 25, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

*Jeff Strain Quote*

Guess they beg to differ.

I reckon they don't implement 7 heroes because they don't know very well how to act, they are too "lazy" to do it now or because they are smart and want people to have 2 accounts

You do know that the speech you are referring to has been picked apart left and right with no response right? It has good points but also awful ones. It also fails to acknowledge his earlier statement (and game philosophy) that the game was built from the ground up to be a competitive multiplayer game and was later changed which however happy and awesome he made it sound, also pissed a lot of people off. And they know how to implement 7 heroes, they just decided not to for the very reasons I am suggesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's now about boosting up your titles to boost up your PvE skills and to get boosted by consumables...sounds a lot like WoW, actually. No longer does your skill matter but rather the time you invest into your "stats", and going through that "time" isn't very difficult.

Winner winner chicken dinner. I wish people would start admitting that Guild Wars has turned MUCH more like WoW over the years. It isn't WoW, but it is MUCH more like WoW than it used to be in years past which has significantly (IMO) affected player skill.

Skyy High · Feb 25, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's now about boosting up your titles to boost up your PvE skills and to get boosted by consumables...sounds a lot like WoW, actually. No longer does your skill matter but rather the time you invest into your "stats", and going through that "time" isn't very difficult.

Bull. If you go from r1 norn to r10 norn, you get 50 more health in Ursan Blessing. Every PvE skill worth using is worth nearly as much at r5 as at r10. That is in no way comparable to a game where you level grind because anyone more than three levels above you has a big advantage over you, and anyone 10 levels or more above you might as well be invincible. Since the PvE skill rebalance (including the death of UB), I haven't seen a single player state his rank in a particular PvE title in the hopes of it helping him get into a group, nor have I seen any group require a particular rank in order to join their group, save DoA.

Bryant Again · Feb 25, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

What do consumables cost? Money. How do you get money? Time. How insignificant are they? Not too much.

How much emphasis is put on putting together coherent builds? Definitely not as much.

Players coming into GW now are seeing only a fraction of what's possible, seeing much more generic MMO features.

Gigashadow · Feb 25, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

How do you even know that everyone always uses consumables in Guild Wars now? Unlike PvE skills, that are OP and free, consumables actually have a cost, and as we all know, players are cheap and don't like to pay for things.

snaek · Feb 26, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

^not everyone does

i said in an earlier post that i believe the group that uses consets the most r farmers/grinders
which is even worse imo

wut was created to help out casual or newer players, instead gets abused by farmers/grinders to help them make money/titles faster and easier

so its lose/lose either way u look at it really

i think both pve and consets r a problem
but moreso pve skills, because as u said, it has had more of a widespread effect than consets have (which fairly stays within a confined group)

Skyy High · Feb 26, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

The main use of consets right now that I can think of is UWSC. Guess what, the most OP part about that, the thing that makes it even possible in the first place, is the perma-SF, not the consets. Perma-SF is done without any consumables OR any PvE skills, and its effect on the game has been far greater than anything those PvE skills or consumables are doing (anymore, that is. Ursan was a far worse offender, but it's been fixed, while for some reason SF has been left alone).

Bryant Again · Feb 26, 2009, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Yeup, solo farming has and always will be a major concern in regards to the structure of the game. The only thing that can be admired about solo farming builds is that require a bit more thought then simply saving up some cash or putting PvE skills on your bar.

But both PvE skills and consumables in general are both one of the many, many problems currently inflating in PvE.

cataphract · Feb 26, 2009, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Perma-SF is done without any consumables OR any PvE skills, and its effect on the game has been far greater than anything those PvE skills or consumables are doing (anymore, that is. Ursan was a far worse offender, but it's been fixed, while for some reason SF has been left alone).

Nerf Perma SF! Nerf it nao! Bring back the no-scatter AI and let me 55 farm those pesky Hydras all over again! I want a collection of three-attribute staves. To arms! To arms! Who's with me?

Improvavel · Feb 26, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Yeup, solo farming has and always will be a major concern in regards to the structure of the game. The only thing that can be admired about solo farming builds is that require a bit more thought then simply saving up some cash or putting PvE skills on your bar.

But both PvE skills and consumables in general are both one of the many, many problems currently inflating in PvE.

I don't know what is the problem with solo farming.

The rewards of this game have no direct impact on the game play.

Bots are easy to ban. Increasing rewards for doing some area/mission or increasing general drops (I vanquished Arbor bay yesterday. Close to 500 kills. I got a lockpick and 3 crappy gold items drops. Fantastic! If not for the fact I wanted the asuran points and the north points, I don't see a reason to do that area in HM.) will make farming less profitable compared to general play.

As usual given two solutions, people prefer to choose the dumbest.

Other than keeping dumb players doing stuff with other dumb players or expert players doing stuff on their own or doing it faster, PvE-only skills and consumables have no impact in game.

Trading is only a small and side part of the game.